ABC Radio 14 June 2021
*Speakers are identified by initials.
Nadia Mitsopoulos: Now if your kids go to a private, Catholic or independent school, do you think it’s time to ditch the traditional uniform that many girls are expected to wear, things like skirts, dresses, pinafores, does it restrict their movements because you may remember back in 2017 when the Education Minister Sue Ellery overhauled public school uniform rules to give girls the option to wear shorts or pants if they wanted to, and it was all thanks to a letter that had been written by an 11 year old. Well, there is a push to do this in Catholic and independent schools as well. The campaigners appear to be facing an uphill battle against strong traditions in many of those private schools as 17 year old Eva goes to a Catholic co-ed school in Perth’s northern suburbs and is lobbying with fellow students to give girls the option to wear pants. Eva, nice to talk to you, Good Morning.
E Hi, Good Morning to you!
NM Now, why do you want this change in your school, Eva?
E Look, I think for me the turning point is when I was talking to kids from our junior school and I realised that because they have to go into their uniforms so early it really discourages the girls from doing sport, playing outside, playing footy, doing all the things that they love, and especially in a school where lots of girls are given the opportunity to do sport, and it’s much better if they can do that in their free time, during lunchtime without having to go under the stress of having to get changed or worry about their skirt coming up and that is only one of all the problems that occur.
NM When you’ve raised this with teachers, maybe your school principal, what sort of response have you had?
E This round we’ve had a really good response; I know it was raised in the past, but it didn’t go through. This time we’ve had a lot of support from the teachers, especially the female leadership team. We don’t know exactly when it’s going to be implemented, but luckily, we’ve been given the opportunity to try on pants, to ask our fellow students whether they want pants, and to really just go through that process.
NM Is there tradition that you think may stop some private schools from going down this path, because the formal uniform it looks very smart, it looks lovely and I wonder if there is a bit of tradition here that gets in the way of change?
E Definitely, definitely, especially with Catholic uniforms and the strict gender codes that we have in pretty much in all our schools of how women should act versus how men should act. It’s a really big change, especially for the older schools that have had this for years, and years, and years. And I think a lot of schools would definitely be unhappy with the change but for the welfare of the students and for what the students want, it’s worth it that we change.
NM I’m talking to Eva, the 17-year-old student that goes to a private school and is pushing for this change. The early signs are that your school may come to the party. What are you hoping for, pants and shorts, and what sort of style, would you want to have a say in the style?
E So, currently we are just looking at pants, and shorts are something that we hope to have at a later date. We have had a look at the pants, a couple of us students have had the opportunity to try on the pants, and they’ve been really great, they are in a different style, a more fitted cut for the girls, but hopefully all students will have the choice of which pants they would prefer, whether they are the traditional boy one or the traditional girl one. So hopefully we will get the shorts in the future, but right now we are looking at the pants.
NM It’s small steps, but they are meaningful. People might say, oh this is a bit trivial really, does it really hold you back? But it’s about being able to play sport and having those freedoms to do so, as you said not without having to worry about your skirt going up.
E Exactly, and even just little things like sitting in class and having to adjust your skirt so no one can see up it, and just being warm in winter, all those little things really stuck up for me that girls want the equal opportunity to be able to wear pants at school, it seems really outdated to still have these rules in place but hopefully we will get the changes soon.
NM Alright, well you are pushing hard, and good on you! Thank you very much, and lovely to talk to you this morning.
That was Eva and she is a 17-year-old student, and she is creating a push and there is change coming at her school. At 1300 222 720 I want to talk to you about this this morning. You can text as well 0437 022 720 I’ll take some more of your calls after 9 o’clock. We’ll also hear from the Equal Opportunity Commission.
Welcome to the start of the week … blurb about guest coming up later in show … inviting feedback on that story …
Dresses, skirts, ties, pinafores … are school uniforms too restrictive for girls? Does it inhibit their ability to run around and exercise, and should pants for shorts be an option for girls in every single WA school, rather it’s public or private, because in public schools students are given a choice, but in the private sector it’s up to the individual schools to make that call. Well there is now a renewed push to make that an option in all Catholic and independent schools. And I’d love to know what you think, should every school give students this choice? The Equal Opportunity Commission thinks so and you’ll hear from them in a moment, but you might be a student on your way to school, if you can quickly send me a quick text before you get out of the car on 0437 022 720, or let mum or dad know what you think and they can could call me on 1300 222 720. We will have that conversation soon, but first let’s get some news headlines … followed by Nadia foreshadowing other stories coming up later in program + Traffic Update.
NM Yelena, Good morning.
Y I’ve got four daughters and they range in age from 8 to 15 and I have watched over the years as my eldest two have decreased in activity as they’ve gotten higher up through the school and I find it really frustrating that we are still fighting in 2021 for girls to even have the option to wear shorts and pants at school.
NM And has your daughter asked for it? Does she complain about it?
I Yes they do, they really hate, we are close to the beach, it’s quite cold and windy and the skirts fly up all the time. They are constantly having to adjust themselves, this year my two daughters in primary school are wearing pants, and this is the first year it’s actually been given as an option, but it’s still just the option of wearing the boys’ pants.
NM You want girls’ pants that are tailored for girls.
I Yes, that would be my ultimate choice. They don’t seem to be too opposed to wearing pants but it’s a little bit hot in winter sometimes, towards the end of term 3 and the start of term 2, wear pants, not only that the girls’ winter uniform is expensive and it’s cumbersome, and really it does restrict their play quite a lot and it’s so much to get changed out of after school sport.
NM Thank you so much. I appreciate your thoughts and your insights this morning, and I will take one more of your calls on … lots of texts coming in …
“Culottes”, says Scott “are a good alternative to skirts, they look like skirts but have the functionality of shorts. Apparently, many private schools in New Zealand use these.”
“My daughter is in Year 9 at Iona and would love to wear pants, especially when she is forced to wear the school stockings which make her itchy. Apparently, there are some other private schools that already allow this. “
Vee says: “Yes to choice for pants! Nadia, girls need to be able to move, play and express themselves at school, gender neutral uniforms will allow girls equality.”
And Bev says: “Can’t believe this conversation is even happening. Do skirts make the girls better people?”
John, Thank you. This is interesting, “Way back in the 80s at Armadale High School girls wearing shorts were banned. Admittedly, they were quite brief. The following day a group of boys turned up wearing miniskirts in protest.” Thank you for that, John.
[News]
NM School uniforms for girls, so girls in public schools get the option of shorts or pants, and you heard from Eva before 9 o’clock, she goes to a private school and she is pushing for change at her school. She would like to be given the option of pants or shorts as well. At the moment the school is looking at allowing pants, maybe shorts down the track. She would love this to be a choice at all private schools as is the case in public schools, and I’d like to know what you think, lots of texts coming through. [numbers given for phoning or texting]
Emma says: “Well done, Eva! Girls should absolutely have choice. I have three boys in Catholic education, and our primary school does allow the girls the choice of pants and shorts and I hope all schools will move to this option.”
Tricia says: “If female members of staff are required to wear only skirts and dresses? I guess not. Imagine the outcry if that was proposed!” Tricia, food for thought there.
Lydia says: “Just because things have always been, doesn’t mean it’s right for now. If society never progressed on anything, how would be living right now? … Girls are there to learn, not to look nice in uniform, therefore uniforms should be practical and equitable for all.”
Loretta, good morning.
L Actually my daughter just had .. thoughts she just doesn’t understand why she can’t wear pants and shorts to school all year round.
NM How old is she?
L … is 11.
NM And does she have a pretty restrictive school uniform?
L They are looking at it now. They have formed a committee to decide if this was an option and whether the whole school community wanted it, which was a little disappointing because we were just asking for the addition of pants and shorts, just as an option, so it is taking quite a bit of movement and patience from parents just to even get this far, but at this stage the girls are allowed to wear their winter pants but there is not really an option for summer. So, the girls are currently allowed to wear their sports uniform in summer, but there is no option of shorts in winter.
NM Have you tried, have parents and students tried to make the school change that policy?
L Yes, yes, we’ve also tried to get rid of ties several years ago and we were told it’s really important that ties are part of the uniform, because boys would need to know how to tie a tie. So, yes the effort has been made in the past.
NM I think the message is to keep trying, Loretta, I feel that change is certainly in the winds there.
More texts coming through.
Wendy says: “After working for ten years in the admin dept at a private , school I was horrified to see how much trouble the kids got over with their uniform, it was a constant issue, I would love to see the girls be able to wear pants and shorts, and love also the option for them to use their winter uniform for cold non-winter days as it was distressing to see the kids, especially my own, shiver their way through the day in the summer uniform just because they weren’t allowed to wear their winter one because it wasn’t the correct season. It is time for change.”
Linda on phone, Hello
L I think there should be more flexibility. In 1975 or around there a few of us girls decided to wear jeans to school and some of us wore slacks, but that got us sent to the principal’s office of course and … within a month or so John Forrest changed its uniform as long as the girls wore slacks. So sometimes you just have to take action.
NM It’s as easy as that.
L It is. (both laugh)
NM Good on you, Linda, thank you very much.
Now, “Stop taking away gender. Lots of us girls like wearing dresses or skirts.” Thank you very much.
“All Saints College have had pants for 10 years, and shorts for 4. These are not boys clothes, they are designed specifically for girls. Other schools just need to get on with it. “
And Juliette says: “Private schools in other countries, if girls have the choice of pants, I cannot see why we are so far behind on this. “ Thank you for that.
Well, Diana MacTiernan is the Equal Opportunities Commission Services Manager and she’s been looking into this and joins me to take part in this conversation. Hello, Diana.
DM Hi, Nadia.
NM So does the Commission support this push and we are seeing that there is a growing appetite for this among Catholic and independent schools to change their policy as a whole, rather than just leave it up to individual schools to make that decision?
DM Over the past few years our Commissioner Dr John Byrne has under his functions under the Equal Opportunity Act approached different school authorities on this issue to ask them to give consideration to allowing more flexibility in school uniforms, particularly for girls and young women, and has promoted that because for all the reasons both Eva and all your other listeners seem to be echoing because it seems to give young women the ability to participate far better in school activities, particularly physical activities.
NM And based on that, does that then make this an issue of discrimination against female students?
DM That would have to be tested, it has not yet been tested, while we have actually had complaints and enquiries about this, they have been matters that have been resolved through our conciliation process. Under the Equal Opportunity Act to prove discrimination it would have to go to the State Administrative Tribunal. So, nothing has escalated to that level yet, and even though it seems a very simple issue, it’s probably quite a complex legal question how you define discrimination and whether you prove that it’s someone being treated less favourably on that basis so that is why our Commissioner took the action he did, to approach authorities to see whether there can be some broader resolution on this for people rather than going down that complaint trail.
NM How often do you get complaints on this issue?
DM Not a flood of them at all, but the issues have been raised and certainly that approach from different people who are very keen to see that change, which clearly from listening to your listeners seems that people are keen to make adjustments to the uniform.
NM Diana MacTiernan is my guest, she’s the Equal Opportunity Commission Services Manager and does on occasion get complaints but would certainly like to see a uniform policy against private schools and if that was, what would have to happen to make that change where there would be change offered to students at all Catholic and independent schools, what would need to happen to make that change?
DM Well obviously those authorities have that discretion themselves to make those rules, so clearly in the State public system that rule was made by the Minister and it peeled out to all the schools, so that was very good, and we know that individual schools have been making adjustments along the way, so it depends on the governance structure of each school. It would be that people have that choice or people, young women, are not perceived to be treated more detrimentally than their male colleagues.
NM Thank you very much for your time, Diana MacTiernan from the Equal Opportunities Commission.
Plenty of you want to talk about this … 1300 222 720…
NM Robert, Hi!
R Hi! In the 70s in Sydney my school, H… High went on strike because during a heat wave we weren’t allowed to take our ties off. And Channel 10 came out and reported it and they spoke to the guy that organised the strike, they spoke to the Acting Principal and within a day the changed the rule and made it flexible and at the end of the news report that night, Ian Lesley removed his tie, and he spoke to camera about the story. So, he offered us a little bit of visual support.
NM Good on you Robert, thank you very much for that.
Wayne, Hi!
W greetings etc. I turn 66 next year, so I’m a bit of an old fuddy duddy with some of these things. Both of our kids went to private secondary college and during that time there was a vacillation about pants for girls or not, but I’m happy to say to Eva and her friends, “You go, girl!”. It’s a tradition, it’s outdated, and it’s my personal view that it’s quite discriminatory between boys and girls, young women.
NM Wayne, thank you very much.
This listened says, these schools get taxpayer funds, allow girls to wear shorts or pants, I can’t believe it’s even an issue, is this 1921 or 2021?
Marge says Why can’t girls just be allowed to wear black leggings under their skirts in winter?
Ahn! Pants would be better to be honest, Marge.
And Bunbury Catholic Cathedral Grammar School allows girls to wear pants and shorts, they can wear the boys’ full uniform if they want. My daughter often wears pants and shorts. We are very progressive here in the country.
Thank you, and Jenny fought for this change back in 2006 and eventually won following huge resistance from the Principal, then had a happy empowered sever year old head off to school each day. Really it is time for change. Look, thanks so much for being part of the discussion, it’s an interesting one. We’ll see how Eva goes and we’ll keep and eye on the Equal Opportunities Commission also to see if at any point they are able to make that uniform choice across all private and independent schools.
Blurb
NM Pete, thanks for your text – “Nadia, if the girls get the ok for shorts and long trousers, does that mean we the boys can wear dress, skirts or kaftans?”
You wouldn’t want to Pete because it will make playing sport a little more difficult. I think you would actually be more comfortable in your shirts and trousers but thank you very much for the question.
